Beyond $1,000,000 Podcast

Unlocking Human Behavior for Better Hiring and Stronger Relationships with Art Snarzyk
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Scott: Hey, I'm really excited today to talk to Art Snarzyk of InnerView Advisors. Art is one of my favorite people. We've done a lot of good work together around behavioral analysis in our industry.

And I think it's an amazing science. Art's amazing at it. So I don't want to talk too much about him. I'm going to let him talk to us and share his expertise.

[00:00:25] The Beyond $1,000,000 Podcast
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Scott: My name is Scott Lollar and I'm a 35 year veteran of the painting industry where I've been part of growing several multi-million dollar painting companies. I have worn all the hats and have experienced everything you have experienced, are experiencing, or will experience. There is lots of chatter about getting to a million dollars, but what very few focus on is what it takes to blast through Death Valley and create the multimillion dollar company of your dreams.

We don't focus on fads tricks or shortcuts. We focus on solid, foundational business principles and data that deliver results. This [00:01:00] is the Consulting4Contractors Beyond A Million Dollar podcast.

[00:01:04] Art's Journey from Paint Contractor to Behavioral Analyst
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Scott: Art welcome and thanks for being a part of the C4C Beyond a Million Dollar Podcast.

Art: Thanks Scott I'm more excited to be here and grateful.

We have done so many things over the years. Yeah, we known each other a decade or so Huh?

Scott: Yeah. Yeah, we had a lot of memories. So let's jump right in. So tell me a little bit about your career path. So tell me a little bit about how you got into painting, which is where we really start this journey, I think, and then we'll continue from there.

Art: Yeah sure. I got into what I'm doing now, consulting, through painting business. I owned a painting company in St. Louis for about 10 years with a friend. It started just slightly before that, though. When I was young, I climbed the ladder in management and in the corporate world. And so I fell into painting after I got tired of corporate.

Got into painting and we started, two guys in a truck, and like a small contracting [00:02:00] company, we just grew and hit our head against the walls, learn those tough lessons, a lot of them about people. And you know, in these iterations of jobs that I've had, it was always about people.

How do I get people to do things? How do I manage people better? How do I hire better? And they were an enigma to me, especially climbing into management so young. I found these tools through some consultants, fell in love with the science, and I'm nerdy, and just dove in, real hard.

Scott: Yeah, so you're working with Nick LaGrasso, who is your partner, an amazing dude, and we're hoping that he'll jump on our podcast someday, and I know he will.

S&L Painting out of St. Louis, so how long did you do that?

Art: About nine years, I guess, 2003 to 2011, somewhere around there.

Scott: Okay, so somewhere in that journey, you start asking different or more questions about what? How did you get to TTI?

Art: It was about people. I started asking questions about people. How do I hire people and you know, how come I mishire [00:03:00] all the time?

How do I you know, how do I manage people better? I don't understand people. I grew up kind of an introvert. So some of that's changed a little bit more of a fun ambivert now but being an introvert, I didn't understand people and how to move them. So really when I found these tools, it helped me understand them better.

It helped me understand myself better. And how to bridge that gap between me and others and how to get them to do what it is I want them to do in a way that they want to do. And that was helpful. How do I pick better people for my company and how do I manage them to do the things we need to do better?

Scott: So did you just go to the internet or something and start looking or, you know, what was your process?

Art: Oh, great question. We had a consulting group that we were a part of and it was a business consulting group for contractors and they brought in some group guru out of Pennsylvania, Grant Mazmanian.

And he gave us all an assessment about ourselves to tell us about our leadership styles. So Nick and I took our assessments and he just blew us away. He was a wizard. He told us more [00:04:00] things about ourselves than I can imagine. So it was really exciting to learn that about ourselves. And then he just told us more about how you can use this for hiring, for understanding your company's culture.

And so it was through this consulting group that I found Grant and he became my mentor and just walked me through the process of becoming certified.

Scott: So you get certified. You become a student.

Art: Yeah, and... The certification process was to work with him and to give out a lot of assessments to a lot of people and then talk with him before I talked with those folks as I was doing all the official certification programs through TTI, or Target Training International, an assessment-providing company.

So I was getting their formal certification and his mentorship. And so I don't know the first hundred or so, maybe two assessments. I'll go back and count the numbers, but I would talk with him about it and he'd say, What kind of office are you going to walk into when you walk in here? What kind of person would this person marry? [00:05:00] How does this person manage? How does he step on his own...? And he would just quiz me on these assessments and make me look at these graphs. And it just became innate to me. And it gave me a new lens for understanding people.

I don't know, it turned into a real passion for me or I discovered what my passion is, and I just want, I want others to understand themselves at an earlier age than I did, and I want them to find a life and work that fits them.

Scott: So there must have come a moment where you looked at Nick and said, "Hey buddy, I think I'm made for something different and I'd like to part ways with friends".

So what happened?

Art: That's tricky, right? Selling a business? That's a whole nother podcast, but Nick and I, we were friends since the first grade. So yeah, you know, we have a little history and we can make it through some things. And 2008 the financial crash really affected contractors and we were a contracting company.

So it really crushed us and we had to get some loans and get out of that. So right around 2011, 2012 is when we were getting out of paying off these [00:06:00] loans and restabilizing. And it was a good point to say, "Hey, you know, two of us can do okay in this business, but one of us can really crush it." You know, and we said, why don't that be you and I'll go do this and he's, I don't know what four, four or five times the size of the business that I sold to him.

Fantastic. He's doing great. I'm doing great. And it worked out well.

Scott: Yeah. You guys are still great friends today.

Art: Yeah, you got it.

[00:06:26] Assessing and Choosing Employees Effectively
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Scott: So tell us a little bit about TTI, about being a behavioral analyst. What does that mean? And what is the tool? And you know, when we talk about this test, this assessment, what is it?

Give us the layman's term of the scientific backstory here.

Art: TTI, Target Training International, they were they were one of the first to computerize these assessments back in the 80s. DISC is one of the foundational tools that they use within the assessment. There's lots of different assessments you can use to discover different things about people.

You know, whether that's IQ or if it's hard skills [00:07:00] like... using Excel, you know, or whether that's do you have interpersonal skills or emotional intelligence?

So TTI offers a suite of different assessments, and I've chosen the ones that I like to give me the most well rounded picture of a person as quickly as I can without giving somebody assessment fatigue.

Because you don't want to spend three hours taking an assessment, but I want a nice picture of a person so that a business owner has more odds in their favor as they choose a person or decide to develop a person. Or how do I get these people to work better on my team?

So the tools are I usually use about four sciences disk, which measures the behavior or how we like to behave.

Our motivators are driving forces. It's really our passions in life. It's why we behave that way.

Really for business owners. It's culture. When people talk about culture, it's our motivators. It's our driving forces. It's what we love. And we can measure that. And I love that in our assessment.

It's soft skills like [00:08:00] interpersonal skills and conceptual thinking and customer service and developing and leading others and time management.

All the stuff you wish people would put on a resume, but they don't. You know, we get to measure that before you hire them. It's amazing. Yeah. And I always use an acumen or the Hartman Value Profile.

It's how do people think? Do they make good balanced decisions for this role or for your company?

Because different companies have different needs. And so I use the assessments to help the company find the right person for their company, not in a generic way, like here's a benchmark for the industry. All business salespeople look like this. That's very different for each company. And I, the tools help us really get it specific for your company.

Scott: So sometimes when I'm explaining this to my clients, because I just love the experience and the tool. We sometimes just say generically, it's a disk on steroids, but that's actually not even a really true statement. It's really several [00:09:00] different tools that are combined into one report.

Is that fair to say?

Art: Yeah, that's a good point, Scott. I've always called it disk on steroids, but you're right. It's not just a superpowered DISC. I'm measuring you from a couple different angles. Nothing spooky, right? Just our normal behaviors and preferences that are going to work out in the workplace.

Scott: The first test is DISC and DISC measures what?

Art: The how of behavior. Our behavioral preference. How do you show up? How do you communicate? How do you like to argue? How do you like to buy things? How do you like to deal with details or interrelate with others? So it's a real great communication piece is this salesperson going to be a fiery hunter, somebody who's going to go out and kill it, or are they like a more even keeled kind of farmer, somebody who's going to spread the seeds and get a good referral base?

Both can be, you know, salespeople depending on other pieces of the assessment, but disc measures, how will they sell?

Scott: Okay, and the second piece is the [00:10:00] motivators. Tell us a little bit about that.

Art: Yeah, so our motivators, our driving forces, it's what wakes us up and gets us excited. It's what gets us passionate.

You know, some people are driven by learning, and some are driven by results, and some are driven by ego and prestige. Some are driven by their own independence, or really feel pulled to help charity. Understanding what your mix of your passions are for yourself. And also generally what your company has, it really makes a big difference.

You can see real charitable driven types of companies or you can see real service oriented or beautification type of companies, like the ones that really, I want to install like lovely landscapes, not just the tie wall, right?

So very different types of construction companies doing the very same thing, but they have different values and you find that out in your motivators or your driving forces.

Scott: Number three is the skills.

Art: Skills. Those soft skills I was talking about. We wish people would put on their resume. [00:11:00] I break those out into three categories, it's achieving skills, like goal achievement, and planning and organizing, and self management. And then thinking skills, like conceptual thinking, or continuous learning.

Are you good at this? Or futuristic thinking. Or people skills like interpersonal skills, diplomacy and tact.

What I found if you don't mind me getting excited about this, what I found very exciting about the skills was they broke these things out into 25 different skills that I mashed together.

Like, why don't you just be good with people or I'll have to fire you, right? Get better with customers. But when I found these skills, in this assessment, I could get really granular and say, does this person not good with customers because they don't have interpersonal skills, or maybe they have great interpersonal skills, but they don't have diplomacy and tact So they're super interpersonal, but they just drop the f bomb somebody to some sort Right and I can really zone in and hone in and develop what I needed to [00:12:00]

Scott: So it's not just a single result you're like combining some of these or working on something that's on the weaker side It gives us a little bit of assistance as we maybe go ahead and say yes to the hire, but then use some of these results to coach and nurture because, hey, you're great at most of the things and the things that we really need, but there's a couple of things that we have seen are weaker than we wish, and we'd like to support you in strengthening those.

Is that accurate?

Art: Yeah, absolutely. It's perfect. Or I find that person just doesn't want to get good at negotiating. They haven't developed any negotiating skills ever. The price is the price. You don't like the price? Shave off some of the options. I don't negotiate.

And they just will never go build those skills. So you just find somebody else who can augment that for him or a computer software that allows a fudge factor or something like that.

Scott: What I really love about the skills is that it does help us to [00:13:00] identify if some of their core strengths are in line with our job description.

Art: Absolutely. Yeah. And are they developed enough? Or are they developed well enough to hire? And I need to send them off to some courses to develop it even further.

Yeah.

Scott: Number four is Acumen.

Art: It sounds interesting or weird, but really, it's do you think clearly? Don't you wish knowing an employee is coming in that they're going to make clear and balanced decisions? That's important.

So it's really not an intelligence marker, but it's really, do you factor in the important things when you make decisions?

And people factor in different things as they think through a problem and the way they think through a problem is important and different roles require different sets of ways of thinking about things, you know?

I want, my accountant to think about things differently than I do, you know, my hazardous response to.

You know, it's just so it's really important to get in their head and see, are they going to make great decisions? Or do they lean [00:14:00] too heavily on delegating things to other people? Do they rely too much on a system rather than their own abilities?

So it's a good thing to understand about a person on the way in the door or as we develop more.

[00:14:14] Assessments for the Right Candidates
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Scott: So just to put you on the spot, speak to why you use these four or how you interrelate these four as you're going through the process, because they're in a way four separate things in a way that you work together to give us a really good image of what we can expect from the candidate.

Fair?

How do you work them together? Or what are you looking for? Or tell us a little bit about why these four, how do they work together and how do you use them to get us good results?

Art: Yeah I am on the spot, Scott, but I don't mind it.

Let's do this. So let's let's pretend we had somebody who's a very direct person. Their style is very direct and outgoing, but they're very task oriented. What we call a high D in the disk model is very chop. And are you guys finished with that yet? Stop doing that. What comes to mind is what they [00:15:00] say.

Those people can have, that's their style. That's how they want to show up. They want to show up and take charge and make sure that they're leading things and they're in control and it's going to go the way that they want and they don't mind speaking up. So that's great. Now we marry in those skills and some of those very high D folks may have high diplomacy and tact skills, which makes them really cool.

"Hey guys, please have that done by two o'clock". "I can't have it not be done by two o'clock" , right? Or they can have very low diplomacy and tact skills. And I think we know that example. Not very nice. It's like you mothers better have it done by two or else, right?

So that's why we measure and look at these different angles

Also, you know if we tied in the motivators, we might say this is a very direct person right and he likes to get things done. By his motivators We're gonna see what he likes to get done.

He might want to work in a nonprofit because he [00:16:00] loves helping people he just, he feels the pain of others and wants to take it away. Money doesn't count. He just wants to go out there and make results happen in a non-profit.

Or, maybe he wants to be an entrepreneur and he wants to build a huge organization with seven managers who look up to him and he gets to tell them what to do.

His style is to be out front. And his skills and his motivators really impact what he's gonna do with that style and how he's gonna fit in that company.

Scott: Now where do the skills assessments play into this then?

Art: Like I said with the DISC, the skills with that diplomacy and tact, or are they a good thinker? That acumen piece will really come into play. So if you're a very direct person and you have some diplomacy and tact, acumen might tell me, how do you think about other people?

Because you might have some clarity and some understanding about people. Maybe you're a very direct person and you understand people very well, I just don't trust everybody. My first initial impact is to keep them at a distance and make them prove [00:17:00] themselves. You've met people like that. You've also met people who are also like, I totally understand other people and I think they're going to come through.

Most people are great. I like people.

So two different things in this understanding and valuing of people but could very well come out in the very same high D. Assessment profile that says, get it done, now, I think you can, you guys are great people, right? Get it done now. I'm not sure they're going to really pull through because most people burn me.

So really understanding that person in totality helps you manage them better, helps you understand them. And when you understand them and you can help them reach their goals, they're going to crush it for you and not want to jump ship. Yeah. But we can also pick that up in an assessment too. Can't wait, Scott.

Scott: Yeah, there's so much here and it's good stuff and we'll get into later how we're going to show you how this works. But what I love about Art's work and his analysis is that [00:18:00] it's been pretty common that we hear of something out there, you know, we're talking DISCs now there's all sorts of them.

You know, the Enneagram and or the Briggs Meyer and all this stuff. And we label them oh, he's there. A high D. Perfect. I want a high D.

Well what I think we don't know is more about the high D. Like is the high D also have a secondary S or is it a D I or a, and I love that Art has spent time to become the expert, so I don't have to, cause I just call Art and I go, "Hey you know, use your superpower".

But what I will say about the four different pictures, if you will, is that it gives us like subpoints to the main point, right? If we just said, Oh, there are an I and we want an I, so good. And they're like, "Oh, you should have asked more questions here".

The four pieces, the four components are giving us some additional layers and unfolding that onion to understand are the other pieces of this person helping them become what we need in our job description.

It's not saying they're a good or bad person. [00:19:00] It's saying, are they going to do the things that we want them to do?

Are they going to be happy doing them? And will they do them?

That's the way Art always explains it to me. Can they do it? That's competency, right? Will they do it? That's like more like a follow through thing. And will they be happy? Will they fit into our culture and enjoy their position and enjoy what we're wanting them to do in our environment, in our job description, which is somewhat of a box, right?

We're not saying, hey, come and be a, you know, scientist, if you'd like. No, we need a salesperson. Scientists are good, but I don't need a scientist. I need a salesperson.

And do you have the components that are going to work in our system here and give us results? True?

Art: True.

And, you know, sometimes we're a little blinded by what we think we want, you know, we think we want a shark hunter salesperson.

But really maybe we need our businesses caught crying for, you know, a farmer. Because you're the shark yourself.

I remember a client who said they needed an inside salesperson and I went in to help [00:20:00] them hire. And I said tell me more about the job. What are they doing?

And the lady told me she goes to the database and she like sends out you know, cards to past clients to upsell or cross sell every once in a while.

And I said does she ever pick up the phone? No.

Does she get commissions for that stuff? No.

What else does she do? She does this entry stuff and some filing. And I said, you have an admin person here, right? You're trying to hire an admin person.

For some reason, you've called it sales because every once in a while they generate some business.

But that's why you keep losing salespeople. You keep calling it a sales position and hiring salespeople and they come in and they're all excited and they have to do all this admin work when you need to hire an admin person. And I don't think you're going to fall in love with that person during the interview.

She called me and she said, I hired this person that didn't feel great during the interview. I know she's the one she took the assessment. It's fantastic. And they worked together for about six years.

But she, she was just off on [00:21:00] what she was thinking. She was using a little bit not even in her intuition. I don't, I think people should use their intuition. I don't think she was using her intuition even to really say, what does my company need? And what should I call that? So that some, the right person will apply.

Scott: So moving on I, I think just makes some sense to just briefly explain the assessment. It's just an online tool with a bunch of questions, takes about how long?

Art: 60 minutes to take the online survey.

Scott: Yeah, so it's a significant test or assessment. I shouldn't call it a test. That will take a little bit of time for the, for whoever's taking it to, to do it.

But most of us have taken some form of it probably in our lifetime, but if you haven't that's what it is it's a whole bunch of questions asking you to rate different things and it just gathering some data.

We don't think that people can truly game the test. Is that accurate?

Art: It is accurate and I think two things. Let me back up to that last point. I think it's really important to know that we're not measuring anything like clinical. Nothing [00:22:00] spooky, right? I'm not going to measure your intelligence or if you have anything that requires medication. It's really your preferences.

What do you want out of life? What are you good at? You know, you kind of working stuff. Also relationships stuff, right? How do I get along with others?

Scott: Tell me why should a company use these tools and your analysis and consultations in their hiring process? Why would you say this is worth focusing on and paying attention to?

Art: In hiring of course I'm biased. These are great tools. They're amazing tools. If there were better tools, I'd use those.

I'm using the best of the best and I'm really good at using them. I don't think it's a luxury. I think hiring is important. And if you miss hiring, you know the pain that comes with that. So when using this in hiring it saves you weeks and weeks of payroll and doubt and you know you don't want to go hire again.

So you're not going to and you're going to blame yourself or your training systems. You know, just put more odds in your favor when you're hiring. And I think that's what this does. And if I see red flags, I'm going to [00:23:00] note those and tell you about them and say, you should ask more questions during the interview or watch out for these and hire the, this person, but watch out.

This shows up in the first two weeks, you can them quick instead of holding onto them for six months of payroll and insurance and all the stuff for a couple of hundred bucks and you know, an hour of their time and an hour of ours or however it works.

For a team, just getting Mary at the front desk to understand those crazy, you know, rogue salespeople a little bit better and understand that and to see that on a graph and say, Oh, I knew we were different, but to see it and, now I totally get it. Okay, you still annoy me, but now I know how you annoy me and I can value the other pieces that don't annoy me. Or I see that we have these other things that we hold in common.

[00:23:49] Special Offer for Individual Assessments
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Justin: We are about halfway through this special episode of the beyond a million dollar podcast with Scott Lollar, featuring Art Snarzyk. You just heard about some of the huge benefits that come from [00:24:00] having your employees assessed through Art's methods. It helps them relate to one another interpersonally. It helps you motivate them more appropriately. Really, the list just goes on and on.

And as you probably have guessed Art's expertise in behavioral analysis and how that applies to you as a contractor is something that we're really, really passionate about at Consulting4Contractors.

We're really excited to be able to make a "special podcast listeners only" offer to you.

If you own a contracting company or are part of making HR decisions within your organization, we are currently offering a limited time 50% off deal on any one individual assessment. Right now you can go to the show notes for this episode and click on the link or go to www.consulting4contractors.com/assessments.

That's www.consulting4contractors.com/assessments [00:25:00] and click "Purchase an individual assessment" . Then at the checkout, enter the code ASSESSMENT50. That's assessment five, zero, to receive 50% off one individual assessment.

Now there's only one discount per company, but we're so confident you'll love what you learn and how to apply it, that you will want to bring this level of understanding to your whole team. Now, after you purchase your assessment, you'll be guided through the process step-by-step and on your way to a better company with the right people and the right seats, they really will be the best fit for what your organization needs.

Please don't hesitate on this. We know it will be transformative for you. If you do have any questions, email us at info@c4c.team or schedule a free consultation at the link in the show notes.

And now back to the podcast.

[00:25:54] Engaging and Managing People Effectively
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Scott: How many, typically how many pages is the report that we're talking about here on the [00:26:00] platinum assessment?

Art: I don't want to scare people Scott. It's a lot of pages

Scott: Okay, so we won't tell you that just could be as many as 65 or 67 Yeah, what I want you to just talk a little bit about, and to the and to those that are listening, we're gonna we're gonna show you what this looks like, we have some exciting things to talk about how you can do that coming up in before we wrap up today, but What I want you to speak about is some of the other things that are not just the results, so some of the you know, help, the helpful tips about how to engage with people and how to help them be better at this, you know, and some of the things that are in there, in that report that are not just here's the results, but yeah what you do with the results.

Could you speak to a little bit to those pieces and those helpful hints that are in there that are more than just the results?

Art: Yeah, I think maybe I'll just talk quickly about a couple of pages that are important, but some pages are like, what are the value to the organization this person would bring?

[00:27:00] Those are always a, that's always a great page to go back to. If I'm frustrated with an employee. It's to be reminded of what their value is and be like, Oh yeah, they're tenacious. They go after goals. Maybe they're driving me crazy because they're going too fast, but I do love that they're tenacious and it brings me, it grounds me and says, yeah, they're just humans too.

Things like ways to talk with this person, ways to communicate, ways not to communicate. Don't be dictatorial to this person, you know, now that sounds broad, but this is not broad. You could get 384 different reports just out of the DISC section and we're measuring for the three other sciences, so I don't know what that works out to you But thousands of versions of this report that's very personalized to you or the individual we're talking to.

How to communicate, how to manage, how to motivate, you know, if you can't get Bill to work a little overtime, there's a page on that.

Scott: Yeah. I love it. And it's so hard to talk about [00:28:00] it. Like I said, we'll show it to you eventually here, promise. But from my point of view, here's some things that I've learned and used it.

For instance we've recently used the tool in hiring a salesperson, but we knew that as far as some of the organizational you know, Putting all the details in the CRM, we knew that was going to be a, maybe a weakness, but we thought he really had great match for the sales part.

You know, the tool here the feedback is, hey, make sure you support him and hold him accountable to the back end because on the front end, he's going to love the sales process. He's going to get people to say yes, but the ops department is probably going to hate his guts because he's never going to turn in the whatever, right?

The paperwork or he's never going to click one or whatever it is, right? So the idea is, hey, this guy is a great candidate. Here's what's probably going to irritate you. So here's what you can do. To shore up the part that's going to irritate you so that you don't get irritated, right?

So we're [00:29:00] anticipating the likelihood of some of the things that are going to most likely happen and some things we can do proactively to mitigate them and make the person a rock star.

And it doesn't mean we said no to the hire, we said yes to the higher, but just gave us some tools to help us manage right out of the gate.

Art: Yeah. And there have been other times where we've looked at it and I said, there's just, I wouldn't, you know, if you hire this person, there's, you know, going to experience pain.

I think I said one time, Scott, just be ready for a few months of pain because it's just the wrong fit. Not that the person's bad. It's just, I'm looking for fit here. Do they fit with your company? Do they fit with the role?

Scott: Yeah. The exact quote was, you can go ahead and hire them, but just get ready for some pain.

Was the exact quote.

Art: Was it?

Scott: It was. I love it.

Art: I do too. I have to be direct, you know. Otherwise, some [00:30:00] business owners will fall in love during the interview. I have, right? It's man, but their resume is good or I can't find anybody else. Yeah. And they want to make it work. Yeah. And I just have to get direct sometimes.

Scott: But they go to my church, or they go, their kids are in my school, I love them, and they're a great guy, and this person's fabulous.

Art: That's great, have fun at church, and be ready for some pain.

Scott: Yeah, that's right, alright.

Art: Maybe you guys can pray about the pain together.

I think one thing that's important to talk about is even right after the hire to have this what I call the get through the honeymoon meeting where you and this new employee get to talk about the assessment results and your assessment results. So I get to come on and talk with you two about why this person just got hired, why we love them.

Why they should use these skills and really focus on those and how you should interact with your boss and how he's going to piss you off from time to time. So that's a really fantastic meeting. So it's not that [00:31:00] three, four weeks of, you know, how do you like the toilet seat up or down? And where do I put my socks?

Scott: Yep. Yep. And why did I love you when you interviewed and why do I not know what to do with you today?

Art: Yeah, exactly. Right.

[00:31:14] Intuition and Assessments in Hiring
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Scott: Yeah. These tools are definitely help you about what do I do with you now? Because we knew this, right? We talked about it and there's some great tools that say now what?

Okay, there's some not now what tools. I want to touch base on the business owner or manager even that says, I don't need this stuff. I just go with my gut. My gut is typically pretty good. I just like my gut feeling. Tell me, what would you say to that kind of person? And that would say, I don't need this kind of stuff.

Art: I love it. You know, there's there's a lot of people out there who are like, you know what? I'm just going to go make decisions as fast as I can. And 80% of the time I'm going to be right. And 20% of the time I'm going to get burnt and I'm [00:32:00] cool with that. And it just depends on your tolerance level.

I think, you know, it's an expensive play. I think that people that go with their gut and say that thing, I think they would change their mind on the depending on the importance, their perceived importance of that position. You know, if they're looking for a business partner, I think they might try an assessment and say, should we collaborate together on this thing?

If they're looking for a janitor, yeah, go with your gut. I studied intuition for a while because I know that I am going to hire off of my gut and I that my clients were too. I studied it to see how does it play. And I think it's a part of the hiring process. Just like the resume, just like the assessment, just like the interview, your intuition, my favorite definition that I came across was your intuition are all of the things that you've learned, you just forgot how you learn those, right?

The things that you know, but you just don't remember learning them. I'm afraid of big dogs, but I forgot [00:33:00] is because one jumped on me when I was four, you know, so use that intuition. And I think it could be a good warning sign Ooh, I've hired somebody that, Ooh, this reminds me of Bill that didn't work out that stole from me.

That doesn't mean he's gonna steal from you, but trust, I think you should listen to your gut, And do that old Ronald Reagan, trust but verify, you know? Use the assessment, it's a science, it's there, It's a couple hundred bucks, and it, Listen, you're gonna spend that in his second day of work, and salary.

Scott: And I think what happens, and we had this recently where depending on your size and your growth pattern, you're in a little pain and you're like, I need to hire this person, this position, you know, as soon as possible before I just die. And so what happens is you get a candidate and you fall in love with them, right?

You have a great interview, you have similar interests there. They have a style that's really comfortable and warm and you fall in love with them. And then you get an assessment and it says, yeah, they are warm, but they're going to be terrible [00:34:00] at that position. They're not going to do well at that. The thing that you're telling me you want them to do, we can just tell you scientifically, they're not going to.

I can see why you like them, but as far as, you know, for a different role maybe, but for this role specifically, no. And that's one of the things that I think... I would say to those that go, I just trust my gut, use your gut to a point, but verify with the science because the science will really get you some, a deeper into what you're going to find and it might be a year or two down the road, but you're, it's going to come out, you know, because we are creatures that this is the way we behave and you could tell me you know, be more organized or go to the gym or whatever you want to say, but I'm just not going to do it.

I'm just not. And I love that there's a lot written about that in, in neuroscience that, you know, there's some foundational stuff that you straight up aren't going to be able to probably change as an adult. And so it's better to [00:35:00] just go with your strengths and do some stuff that you're good at and love instead of trying to, you know, fit something into something that you're actually not going to ever be good at and you're not going to love it.

And this is the, this is what we're doing here. We're going, Hey, let's give you some extra ammunition here to go, I think you're a great person, but I think you'd be better somewhere else

Art: Yeah. And what I think is very interesting about this and with the intuition conversation is that those who use the assessments, if it is the right person, they feel confident about it.

And they also have the owner's manual on how to operate this person. They also get to trust their gut a little bit more. Yes, that's what I saw. Ooh, I didn't see that nuance that we picked up in the assessment. I also like to say this, that I didn't understand this benefit of using the assessments just till a couple months ago.

A painting contractor out of Denver said, you know what we assessed this person way too late. I'm thinking about hiring him, promoting him into project manager. And [00:36:00] he's been here for five years. Had he assessed that guy on the way in his, the person's results were obvious. That guy was going to be a leader and a good one.

And we could have fast tracked that he could have had a project manager two years ago. But he just, he didn't have, you know, that information, that awareness. And I think that's another way.

So it might not be a good fit for this position or in this company, but it just might be, hey, wait a minute. That gives me an idea.

You don't have what I need for this, but your skill set is pretty cool for this other position. Let me pivot and think about this. You're not sales, but I like what you got for marketing at trade shows or whatever that looks like.

Scott: Yeah. And that happens a lot, doesn't it?

Art: It does.

It's wow, we got somebody who's spectacular, but they don't, they're not going to do this role, but consider them for something else.

Scott: Yeah. Yeah. I love it. All right. So let's, as we wrap up here, let's talk a little bit about who are the primary people that we are good candidates for [00:37:00] this assessment. Or what are some of the positions in the contracting world, at least that we, we find that are, this is a good fit for those candidates.

What, who are we testing?

Art: Specifically we're looking at admin, right? Admin, project managers and sales. And occasionally we're talking about the big ops people, like this is for the larger companies or I'm like a COO, or I'm going to bring in a partner or two companies are going to merge, but that's when you might want to have some conversations on should we, but typically it's going to be sales, admin, production, management, operations kind of thing.

[00:37:39] Importance of Assessments for Hiring
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Scott: Yeah. And how does this work? So basically, we get to the point where we're just shy of hiring, almost extend an offer conditional on this assessment. We send them the assessment, have a consultation and it helps us decide do we give the offer or not give the offer or is that sort of the sequence?

Art: Yeah, typically people [00:38:00] have reviewed a resume. They like it. They've probably talked to the person, had an interview on the phone or in person, and then they've ordered an assessment, sent the assessment, the candidate has taken it. And now it's time for us to talk and either I'm going to talk to the business owner 1 on 1.

We're going to talk about the job and the results of the candidate. Or maybe I have a already having a relationship, I understand that role and I send them a video kind of transcript a little bit, say, pointing out some indicators of things from there. They would they would either go on to a 2nd interview.

Maybe I'm giving them information that requires some additional questions, right? It looks like you're not as driven by these things. And we really wanted somebody who was going to research new things and you don't like to research. How do you see that fitting? Or maybe that's a deal breaker. So it might be more questions for the interview or it might be, I love them.

Let's get them in the door and send an offer. Or I send them a script that is, that is a [00:39:00] polite decline, you know?

Scott: Yeah, those are hard aren't they?

Art: Don't spend more time with this part. Nope. No, I don't think so. No, not if you have my script.

Scott: There you go, beautiful. One of the things that we do in C4C is just like Art said, we like to help our clients generate an accurate job description, and that usually leads into an ad which we send to Art, because nuances are important, and if you've sprinkled in this conversation, Art's even talked about some of them: is this person going to interact with customers or just do data, or just do scheduling or just do they need to be warm and polite and happy or does it matter or oh, they're going to be customer facing, that's more important than the fact that they can be organized in the back end.

So what you're asking the person to do, and this is in every position specifically, is important because we see it a lot in sales people where that the owner will come and say we got slow and [00:40:00] the person won't go knock on doors.

Did you did the job description say you were going to have to generate your own leads or did you suggest you were going to generate the leads for them?

Oh no, we said they were going to generate all the leads. You could go back to the assessment or you, if you didn't do an assessment and you assessed them, you would see this person's going to be terrible at knocking on doors.

They're not, they don't have the skill set to do cold calling hunting like that. They're just warm and positive and great with customers. So once they get in the house, they sell stuff like crazy. And so you're, you don't know why they won't call cold call because you didn't make it part of the job description.

And if you had, we would have had something to say about that when we assess them. And so to be as accurate and complete in that will help you get a better result.

Art: Yeah, and I don't like to limit people and say that this person can't do sales calls, but like you said earlier there are pieces of people that can change and there are pieces of people that are neurologically structured.

You're probably going to [00:41:00] be that way most of your life, right? So I'll be able to help you tell you help tell you, you know, is that a trait that can be changed or is that just that person and that's their mojo, they're not going to, and those odds in your favor are just helpful and comforting, comforting when we're trying to drive a business.

Scott, we had that one client that had a very large job description that person was going to do very diverse things for major kind of roles, but it was like one very diverse, one was operational, one was marketing and one was administrative. And I was like, listen, here's the order in which this person's going to love this.

They're going to like responsibility three, four, two, and then never do one. Yep. And that's awesome to know going in.

Scott: It is. Assessing pre hire is something we offer and we'll talk a little bit more about that. So that's any of your key positions we can help you pre-hire. And then there's another thing that we do, which we call the team assessment, which [00:42:00] is helping an already in place team, and testing your key people in your organization.

We're talking typically management could be even a project manager, some lead field people, but we're talking about typically management type people. And then we do some coaching around how to best work together to understand the differences and understand why Art irritates me to death, but how I might be able to change some of my behaviors so that I could actually get the most out of Art without pissing him off as well.

Could you speak to that a little bit Art, the team assessment and how that can be helpful?

Art: Yeah, I really enjoy it. You know, teaching is primary for me. So teaching people about themselves and others is what I do. And these assessments make that real easy for people to get, and doing that in a group of, you know, you get your leadership team of a couple of sales guys, a couple of project managers, the admin and the bookkeeper.

And then there's you and you know, it's [00:43:00] that little group of five, 10 people in a room looking at their profile, understanding, looking at each other's profile, elbowing each other and saying, ah, that's exactly how you act when you drive me nuts. It's a little bit fun. It's revealing, but not in a way that's spooky.

And it, it really gives us some understanding, I think, of other people. And every time, only every time, I think it allows people to give other people grace. You see the team just be like, the other people are not waking up to make me angry. They're just different than me. And now I understand that better.

And that's what the team gets. And they work more cohesively because they know how to communicate better. And the boss knows how to leverage these people better. Oh, that's, Mary is great at that. Let's have Mary do that. Bill's our salesperson, but you know what? He doesn't like research. Let's have Jim do the research while the other goes in sales.

Yeah,

Scott: I love it. And what I hear is that when we have [00:44:00] some things that we've warned the owner or the key person to look out for, not a disqualifier, but a, Hey, a great candidate, here's a couple of things to watch for. They see them, they see those things quickly when they happen, cause they're going to happen and they have the tools to address them and to move through them instead of just go, oh, shoot.

I never knew that. I wish I had known. No, you knew we told you it was coming and you already have the tools to address it and that's what we hear people go. That stuff's gold like amazing.

Art: Yeah, I agree and it helped me in my business and that's why I started this company to help you.

[00:44:37] Improve Business and Personal Relationships
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Scott: Yeah. Art any last thing that you'd like to say before we wrap up and give everybody a few next steps here?

Art: I think the most important thing is people are the most important thing in your business. As that introvert. I looked actively for a business for two years. How can I run a business that doesn't require customers or [00:45:00] employees? And I just couldn't find any with a good business model. And so I said, if you can't beat them, learn them.

And that's what I've done. And you don't have to learn them as deeply as I do, but you'll have fun doing it. And as you learn this stuff, you'll be like, Oh, that's my mother in law. Oh, that I'm going to raise my child a little differently because of this information. And it's enlightening when you can work better with your employees.

You can understand what your clients need better, and you have better tools to deal with people and yourself.

Scott: Yeah. Art, this has been amazing. I'm such a fan of this work and and what Art does. He's so valuable that we've created some programs because I want everyone to use these tools because they will change your life.

And so we have a couple of different programs that will make it easy for you to access the tool and Art. And we're going to tell you more about that in the show notes. We're going to, there'll be two different webinars posted there. One that'll show you the individual assessment that we spoke about.

And then another one that'll show you the team assessment. [00:46:00] And as always, you can schedule a call with me to learn more, or there's going to be links that you can just go forward and say, yeah, I want that. You can schedule your assessments. And and begin the journey. And I encourage everyone to do this because it's a game changer.

And these are tools that are big business wouldn't think twice about not, you know, they would never not use the tools. And these are accessible to us at a price point that's reasonable and they will change your company and they will change your hiring process and they will change your, the trajectory of your company. I guarantee it. So Art, I so appreciate you and I appreciate you being part of this podcast and of our community.

Art: I'm grateful, Scott, you say nice things about me and I love working with you and you're the people you have are always top notch. I love serving your clients.

They're eager to learn, quick to implement and they'll challenge if they need to, but smart people. I appreciate your trust in me and I like them. So thanks.

Scott: Yeah. Thanks Art. [00:47:00]

Art: You're welcome.