Beyond $1,000,000 Podcast

Creating a Million-Dollar Business with Kevin Wooten
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[00:00:00]

[00:00:00] Lessons From a Successful Painting Business
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Scott: Today, I'm looking forward to my conversation with Kevin Wooten, owner of Carolina Painting and Pressure Cleaning out of Lexington, South Carolina. Kevin has some solid ideas on marketing and how to keep your lead funnel full. He has built a solid and profitable business and I thought we could learn something from Kevin today, particularly around marketing a painting business and what it takes to drive lead flow.[00:01:00]

So welcome to the podcast, Kevin.

Kevin: Thanks for having me.

Scott: Yeah, my pleasure. So let's start at the beginning. Tell me a little bit about how you got into this business, you know, take us back to the beginning and how you got into it and, and, the humble beginnings, as they say,

Kevin: The olden days!

So my dad had a paint company. And so when I started painting, I was probably, I was in high school. So I'd say 13, 14, every summer weekends. I mean, I, I work, there wasn't football, there wasn't partying and concerts. And, I graduated high school in 87 and I came to him and said, Hey, why don't, and I was running everything.

So like if I was on the job, it didn't matter. You know, I'm, I'm 14. It didn't matter if you were 50, I'm telling you what to do because I'm in charge. And, so after I graduated I said, Hey, you know, why don't we be partners? And he [00:02:00] said, well, why would I wanna do that? So I said, okay, well I'll see you later.

So as soon as he did, I went out and, I think I went out probably the next day and got my first builder, who was somebody I had already known and, pretty much started from there. I think I had my first employee within about a week and that's how I got started. So I was graduated in 87 and started my paint company.

Scott: So back then, what kind of work were you doing with your dad? What was his business makeup?

Kevin: So he did mostly, he did mostly new construction. He did some repaints. He did some commercial. He was kind of full, full spectrum. Um. I would say he probably didn't make money on new res, but he did a fair amount of commercial that I think he did pretty good on. So when I, when I quit, I didn't have any commercial contacts.

So I went straight into the new construction. So I did that for, oh man. Years and years. I had it up. I had up to about 19 painters. I [00:03:00] could basically go anywhere. I wanted to in town and just walk up to a builder, tell him I was and I could paint for him because I had a good reputation. Everybody knew who I was and we did what we said.

And we, we did a good job. The problem was, I was, uh. I was a money launderer. I was money laundering between the builder and the paint store and my employees, so, you know, somehow the paint business has always fanned out, you know, when I need the money, it's always there, but it wasn't that I had a bunch of money saved up and I was doing the right thing.

It's just the way it fell into my lap, you know, ever since I started being in business. So that's kind of, I stayed in the residential business. Finally, I got out. Let's see. Let me think of how this went down. So I got into residential being about,

I don't know, five, six or seven years into it. I joined a peer group. I started doing some direct mail. I started keeping up with my numbers, [00:04:00] doing the flyers, doing the yard signs and doing all this. And, um. Just somehow I thought, I decided again that maybe we should be partners because we're both paying workman's comp, we're both giving estimates, we're both following up on jobs, so that was the idea then.

So he quit his business because he really didn't have any kind of, he didn't have any kind of reputation. I mean, he's kind of fizzled out, you know, he was, he was a lot older, he didn't do anything new. So the deal was going to be, I was going to do the estimating, he was going to take care of the crews, and we'd go from there.

So we shut his business down changed all my numbers over to his phone and my business over to his business and It didn't work out So after 10 years of me building up my first company When he walked out till we walked out at the shop one morning He said I don't want to do this no more and then I was left with no business name No phone number that I've had for 15 years.

All my stuff was gone. So I had to start over again.

Scott: [00:05:00] And what year was that?

Kevin: That was probably in 2000 and I may be 2005.

Scott: Okay.

Kevin: So anyway, I did. I started it again. I had to change my name to Carolina painting. It was Carolina painting contractors. Now it's got to be Carolina painting and pressure cleaning. So I did that. Then I decided to open a bar, a restaurant bar.

So I did that, which I hated. I never have worked for anybody besides him. And I never worked anywhere where I had to be the same place every day. So the beauty of painting is I'm there for a day, I'm there for a week or two, and I'm gone. I started building houses. I did that for six years. I hated that for the same reason.

Same place, same, same place too long. So anyway, sold my restaurant in 11, 2011. I still always painted the whole time. It's still open today, but got back and started it back up again. So in 2011, I started back up [00:06:00] again.

Scott: All right. You just said a lot. I gotta, I gotta unpack this a little bit. All right. So I want to go back all the way to your beginnings with the new construction, 19 painters, and you said you're a money launderer. I think what you're saying is everyone got paid, but you, you,

Kevin: Yeah,

Scott: yeah. So you, you, you found that, you know, while in those early days, there's a lot of work, you weren't, you really didn't know how to run a business particularly.

Sounded like you had good management skills because you had people, a lot of people. You had good relational skills because you could get a job, but what you weren't doing was making a profit, is that fair?

Kevin: Correct. I was making, I was making, I was making wages. I mean, basically, you know, I tell this story even, even when I was working in school, I mean, I was I had to pay, I had to pay rent when I was in high school. I had to cut my air conditioning on and off in my room when I was in high school and pay part of the electric bill.

But I would work on the weekends, and I mean, even in 87, I was making $10 an hour, which [00:07:00] in 87, for a painter, my dad's painters were making $8, $7 an hour. He was paying me 10. But. I always say that this is how the paint business has always been for me. I can make that $400 every week and be fine. And then he would say, hey, Kevin, I need you.

I'm going to give you this job for $800. You can do Saturday. And then Monday, I would get a bill for new tires. I need $800. And that's kind of how the paint business has always been for me. It's always been. It always has provided, this system, never not provided.

Scott: Okay, so you went to work, you combined your company with your dad's company, I got that. And then he said it didn't work out, you're out on your own. Were you painting while you owned the restaurant/bar? Okay, but your company, it wasn't really like a, the company wasn't really like going gangbusters.

You were basically focused on the bar and restaurant. How long did that last?

Kevin: I had it from 08 to 11, and then before 08, I painted for, I mean, I built houses for about 6 [00:08:00] years.

Scott: And how'd you like that?

Kevin: I didn't,

Scott: Okay.

Kevin: You know, the reason I started that is because I was doing all that new work and I realized that every single customer was mad and it was basically because the builder wasn't on site, nobody could ever find the builders. And, so I decided to make a change and, you know, I knew what was wrong.

So I knew all I had to do was communicate, but it just, like I said, 3 months at 1 spot was, would drive me insane. I have a new respect for my bank teller. He's been behind that glass for 25 years, you know,

Scott: Yeah. Get him a raise, huh?

Kevin: Yeah. Oh yeah.

Scott: So when, what year would you say you went back into the painting business, Carolina Painting And Pressure Cleaning, full time?

Okay, so 2011 so, so you're about 12 years or so into this iteration of it. Okay, great. So when you went back into business in 11... What did your business look like?

What did you do to start doing? Cause now you had all the experience. [00:09:00] You didn't want to be a bar restaurant owner. You didn't want to be a builder and apparently you didn't want to really do new construction. Is that, is that correct? All right. So in 11, what'd you come out of the gate doing?

Kevin: So in 11, I still had some customers that would call me for paint. Everybody knew I've always painted and I painted, so I didn't go out hiring painters. I painted and, it wasn't long afterwards that I was starting to hire some painters. And, I did some direct mail. I did. I did wrap the vans.

I did do a yard signs. So I did have a website. I did my website. I was up on number one in Google pretty much the entire time and I just tried to do a lot of social media posting, not really buying, but just posting.

Scott: Okay. All right. So we'll get into a little bit about some of, your efforts there.

[00:09:50] Business Model and Employee Structure
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Scott: So tell me about your business today. What's it look like? What's your service mix? employee model

Kevin: So, okay. So today I do [00:10:00] estimates. That's really what I try to only do. I do like to do some pressure washing sometimes. So I will take the truck out and wash. I got five people. I've got, I got two couples that work for me. Man and, man and wife. I got two of those and then I got another girl. So right now I got three painters that are girls and two painters that are men.

And then Amanda's in the office doing admin work for me. So, our day is just basically, everybody starts around 8 o'clock, and everybody kind of runs their own thing. Our pay schedule is, I mean, our pay is different than a lot of people's. We do a pay for performance, but we still do it different than a lot of people.

I do a percentage. There's no negotiating. There's no them giving me a price on the job. I mean, when we go, they get what I give them. And that's just what it's going to be. I do tell them up front, even when I have a new contractor coming in. Hey, look, we're going to try this. I'll give you this job.

There's no [00:11:00] negotiating when we get done. If you're not happy with it, you're welcome to move on. But this is, you know, I'm giving you the most I can give you. So those two couples have been with me for probably, I mean, going on almost three or four years, they've been with me pretty much every, every day.

So, I just hired a new girl and she's in the process of training, but I quit hourly, I used to do hourly and I didn't realize how much stress it caused me. Man, wondering like what time are they getting to work? How much lunch did they take? Are they overdoing their breaks? What time did they really knock off?

It just stresses me out too bad and my brain can't take it. So I just found out that doing this by percentage based on the percentage of the job is just, man, that's just a breath of fresh air for me because they don't, they get paid well one week behind. So pretty much whatever they finish this week, they'll get paid next Friday for.

Scott: [00:12:00] Mm hmm.

hmm

Kevin: and, they've never complained.

I paid, I paid one of the couples last year, about 130,000. You know, and these are painters that make $20 an hour normally. And that's 120,000, or it might've, it might've been $136,000, I can't remember. But it was, it was in that range. And, you know, they, it's just them two. So, they drive my van. They do all the maintenance and service on it.

They buy their own tools. They buy all their own sundries. So, all I give them is paint. And, we work, you know, really, I try to give them about, depending on the size of the job, An average is 30 to 40% of the job. So I hear people sticking, saying, Hey, you got to give them 50%. You got to give them 40. I have to try to keep a fine line between making sure they get paid enough money without overkilling, because it really will hurt our relationship.

Just, because they'll expect it every time [00:13:00] and for me to do a such a good job of selling, I should be the one reaping some of that benefit. That's why they don't get the 40 or 50 all the time.

Scott: Okay, so sometimes we talk, a lot of people talk numbers, and, and, and what we found is they're a little bit, a little bit irrelevant because it depends on, no, it's not, it's relevant here. I'm just saying, what I'm, what I'm wondering is, what I'm hearing is that your bill rate is probably significant that your 30 to 40 percent is pretty good, it sounds like.

Kevin: Yeah. I mean, they're getting, you know, an average two person. One of them, I mean, their check last week was $4,200.

Scott: Yeah. Okay. So, if we, And then you say 30 to 40 percent and then does that include the material or you pay the material on top of that?

Kevin: I pay for that.

Scott: Okay, so you're so you're at about 30 to 40 percent of the gross and then you buy the paint, they pay their own sundry. So depending on the job, it's probably, what, 45 to 50 percent so you're at about 50 percent gp.

Is that about is that right?

Kevin: That's right. And see, I can keep my, I try to keep my materials down to 10%, because of course, I always add [00:14:00] extra in them in the material for the estimate, but then and so I did deduct that full amount. So if they don't use that material, it's more of my money and, they provide their sundry. So they're buying their tape and the caulk.

Scott: Great, okay

Kevin: So that's how I can keep it down to 10-12% in material.

Scott: Sure. So, because of your, compensation style, does each crew work 100% without just them? Those two work together and that's

Kevin: it?

Most of the time, most of the time they work by themselves. Just those two crews. I don't like to intermingle them. If we do intermingle them, the way I do my estimates are so separated out that if I'm doing inside of a house, each room is on the estimate as a different line item. As long as they can tell me which one they did, I can know how to divide that job up.

This week, this week we're calling, starting today, they're calling for rain for two weeks, so there may be some where we have to combine them inside, but it'll be enough that we can keep them separated.

Scott: And then, what do you...[00:15:00]

Kevin: And then if we do a small job, if it's a If it's a small job to me is under, is, you know, something, it's $2, 000.

I might even give them 50% because, you know, it takes them a couple of days to me, I'm not gonna, I gotta pay them. You know what I mean? I want them to be happy. So, it just depends on the size.

Scott: Okay. And what do you do with your fifth person? How do you, how do you do the, put the fifth person into play?

Kevin: Okay, so actually just started and right now she's by the hour. That's the way she's always worked. She's been painting for a while. So right now she's going through the PCA training modules just because I do want them to get through that and she's doing really good. But what I'm doing right now. Is I'm weighing out what she's making.

So basically today when she left, I said, here, actually is your work order. You to separate from those two. You only do what you can do mark down what it is because to me, hourly pay is really [00:16:00] unfair for the painter. Because the starting wage in South Carolina, and the seasoned professional wage is not too far apart.

So it's hard to give them a future. How do you give these people a timeline and a growth chart? Oh, you're going to start down here. You know, right now you probably got to start people at $17, $18 an hour. Nobody's paying over 25. Well, that's only a $7 difference. I mean, for something you spent 50 years

Scott: Mm hmm. Mm

Kevin: So the way I'm doing it this way, they're responsible for what they make. You know, I've got a certain amount of that job that they're gonna make. If they're fast, they're gonna, they're gonna make more than that $25. Most of my guys are averaging almost $40. So right now she's going to do that for three months.

We're going to monitor that. At least we say for three months, it may go faster. Cause like I said, I hate hourly. And what I'm going to do for her, the other two crews have workman's comp, and they have their numbers, so they get 1099'd. She [00:17:00] will be a full, she will be an employee, so I will carry her workman's comp, taxes, and get a paycheck.

So hers will be more or less on a bonus situation, where she'll get her weekly salary, plus a bonus will be her commission out of that job. Makes it the same way.

Scott: Got it. So you have right now four people that are technically, you have two subcontractor crews and okay. Got it. Perfect. Now, since 2011, this iteration, what's the largest you've been?

Kevin: Employee-wise?

Scott: Well, yeah, just manpower.

Kevin: Probably 10. Now, now I've been using subs. I mean, you know, I've had subs that'll bring a bunch of people in, which I don't count that. But, they weren't subs like my subs now. They were subs that they could bring 10 people. I wouldn't know who none of

Scott: are.

Kevin: them

Scott: Right. Got it. Okay.

Kevin: . Okay.

Scott: So, so right now you have really a legitimate subcontractor model where you have two, two [00:18:00] crews that are, have their own entities, their own insurance, and you're paying them a flat rate. That's great. And then you have your fifth person is a, is actually a W2 employee. And, and

Kevin: Legitimate W2.

Scott: how How big would you like to get, or is this a comfortable size for you?

Kevin: I tell you, I want to get bigger one day and sometimes I'm okay with it. I would rather get, I would rather I would like to hire an estimator. I need an implementer is what I need. I need somebody who can take what I come up with in my head and get it done. That's really my biggest, that's my biggest issue. I'm a good starter.

Scott: ha, aren't we all?

Kevin: Yeah, I'm a good starter. I can write a handbook like nobody's business, but I can't get them to, I don't get them to read it. You know?

Scott: Yeah, I think that's a common thread with entrepreneurs, that we all have more ideas than we could ever put into play. So, I am curious, what's the split between your painting and your [00:19:00] pressure cleaning?

Kevin: It's, it's. Pressure cleaning is very minor.

Scott: It is, okay.

Kevin: It's very minor. I try to go wash on Fridays. That's when I go wash.

So, I don't have a crew that goes out and does it. I try to do them. I try to do about four on Fridays. It's just because I estimate on Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. I don't on Monday and Friday.

So I try to, and I try to wash on Friday and I'll do, I just quit, one other painter was a good, he's a good friend of mine, but he just kept sending me to the worst pressure job, washing jobs and I do another painter's washes. But I probably hadn't done individually, like gotten paid only for pressure washing $ 20, 000 this year.

Scott: So you're really a painting company.

Kevin: That's

Scott: Okay.

[00:19:49] Marketing and Office Management in Contracting
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Scott: Now Do you think there's a future in, building the pressure cleaning side, or is it just some, is it really just a side hustle?

Kevin: You know, I [00:20:00] wanted a pressure washing truck, so I had to figure out a reason to get it. So that's why I said, okay, I need to be doing some more washes. I think that so many people have started up pressure washing over the pandemic and everybody who retires, they're going to either be a pressure washer or cut grass.

So you do have a lot of competition with pressure washing. I would love to build it up because you know what, I can make 150 an hour versus 75. So, with one person, with no materials, hardly. And, you know, you can have some easily have some good days, but with that comes that many more customers for those small jobs.

Scott: And you, and you already touched on it a little bit, but you have someone in the office, you have an administration, some kind of a person in the office, full time?

Kevin: Full time.

Scott: And what do they do?

Kevin: Answer phones, they do work orders. They talk to [00:21:00] customers, answer emails, pay bills. She does everything. You know, I hear a lot of people saying you got to wait to a certain amount to have somebody in the office. Man, if I had one employee, I'd have somebody in the office. I mean, if I had one painter, I laugh about it because, you know, I used to do everything.

I used to answer the phones and we had answering machines and you had to stop at the paint store and borrow a phone to call the customer back during the day because you didn't have a cell phone. And now that we got all this technology, man, you can stay busy and all this stuff supposed to save us time, but I can stay busy all day in the office now.

And I'm going, I got two crews out here working. Why in the world is it taking me in my office and her in her office all day long just to do work, you know? So it's kind of a double edged sword. I wish I could go back to my pager.

Scott: You, you, you just lost a whole bunch of people, don't even know what a pager is.

Kevin: It's a square thing that [00:22:00] beeps!

Scott: Google it. Okay. You know how to do that. All right. Shifting gears a little bit. Tell me a little bit about your marketing philosophy and, you know, going back to even 2011. How have you, you know, gotten found and you know, tell me what you what is your marketing strategy?

What do you do? Tell us a little bit about your philosophy there.

Kevin: I do The first thing I ever really mainstream bigger type marketing that I ever did was direct mail. Now that was back when it was I mean, that was 2000 to say this. Let's just say 2000 to give us a year. And I'll tell you, I spent $1800 and it made me about $65, 000. So I was happy with that. And it did pretty good back then.

It has not done as good recently in the last decade because of emails and internet. I have [00:23:00] started back doing some EDDM marketing and actually I'm fixing to order more postcards today. And I'm going to not do the EDDM this time. The return on it hadn't been as great as I thought it should be. I hadn't been getting, I mean, I've been getting calls, but not like I wanted them.

So what I'm going to do is the, is the direct mail. It's going to be addressed and stamped and sent, to see if that has any more impact of it being actually addressed to the customer and actually getting to the customer instead of them ended up in the trash because of the mail

Scott: Right. So let's unpack that just a little bit for people that don't know, what's EDDM?

Kevin: All right, that's every door direct mail. That basically means you got you target your area. By the zip code and by the, route number. So if you went on USPS. com and go under EDDM, you can pull up a map. And as you scroll over the map, you can see the [00:24:00] route number. So if you want to be in a certain neighborhood, you scroll over that neighborhood and look at the road.

And when it selects that road, you select it, it tells you how many people's in there. And the difference is going to be, that's going to be a 17 cent mailing. So when you send that mail, it's 17 cent, versus first class mail. So the problem with the EDDM is it's not addressed to a customer. It's just going to go in the, basically your box of mail sits by the mail carrier.

And every time he goes to a mailbox on that route, he's going to, he's supposed to reach in there and grab one and put it in the mail. And that's the EDDM. It's the cheapest way to get in their mailbox, period.

Scott: And you, so you print, you design and print your own piece and...

Kevin: I have it printed. I have it printed.

Scott: So do you have a printer that's fulfilling the whole, the whole thing? Taking the post office, the whole nine yards?

Kevin: No. He sends them to me. I do all the, we do all the [00:25:00] mapping out. And then the way that EDDM works is I need to deliver it to the post office that services that route. So we might take it to four different, we might have four different post office routes that we have to go to.

Scott: Yeah. So, um. It, the EDDM is something that the United States Post Office came up with because they were, they're losing money and they own the post, they own the, the box. So they're, the only people that can put legally mail in a box. So they said, well, heck, why don't you just use us to deliver your direct mail and we'll make it cheap for you and, and beat everybody else out.

And, there's a couple of ways to go about it. And we've just had a little crash course here, with Kevin, but, it's something that has been more popular because, because of the use of direct, email. A lot of people said the mailboxes were empty. We're open. So, but, there are some limitations to it and you have to do [00:26:00] complete carrier routes.

And like he's like Kevin just said, you do have to deliver them to the post office that carrier routes in. So, a couple of, a couple of unique things and, and you can hire printers that will fulfill the whole thing to you. They will deal, they will take everything, they will print it, they will, you know, sort it and they will deliver it for you for a fee, of course.

And that's an option too.

So, okay. So you've been doing direct mail. You started with, so that's direct mail. When you say direct mail, initially you were buying the list. Is that correct?

Kevin: Direct mail, they did my list. And they would, they would address each, each piece was addressed to a mailbox and it would say, it would say. To my neighbors at and then their address.

Scott: And so you're going back to the actual individual postcards like that.

Kevin: I'm gonna try it this time with 15, 000 and see how it goes. I have a real problem with the post office not delivering mail. I think, I mean, I went out in my mailbox that, you know, if it's a [00:27:00] EDDM, I've been out there 2 days in a row and have 3, three of the same item in mine. And it just drives me insane because I know that person has paid for every one of those to be delivered to a mailbox.

And, and they give you the exact amount. I mean, so when I give that to the mail person, if there's 362 people, I give them 362. So I know that when I got three, my mom's next door, she's got three, my neighbor's got two, there's people not getting them.

Scott: Yeah.

Kevin: So I'm hoping that by doing the, the paid. When I pay a little bit more, I'm hoping, and you still don't pay 59 or 62 cents or whatever it is, you still pay a postcard rate, but it's not 17

Scott: So what would you say, what is your per piece landed on a direct mail piece?

Kevin: I can get on printer for about 0. 08, and that's delivered to me, wrapped in hundreds, already ready to get to the mailbox. Or to the post office. So my postage is 17 cents.

Scott: [00:28:00] That's, that's 20, 20 cents.

[00:28:01] Google AdWords
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Scott: Yeah, something like that. Okay. Great. Right, so you did the direct mail and you've had some success with it, enough to keep doing it and dabbling. What else have you done that you've liked?

Kevin: I do Google AdWords and I do those. So, I've been doing that now for a few years myself. I've tried to let other people. [00:29:00]

Scott: You feel, you feel pretty confident in, your, your, so tell me a little bit about that process and how you've learned about it and what do you do?

Kevin: Well, if you start off with Google AdWords, they're going to spend every single penny you give them. I mean, the key to that for me has been the negative keywords. You know, I kept thinking in my head, okay, I need to target all my, my competition and I need to make sure their names are going to pop up whenever I'm going to pay [00:30:00] for their names.

So I, my name will pop up when somebody's searching. And you want to do everything, you know, I'm putting everything in there and no negatives. They end up, you end up getting every person calling you for painting cars, painting pictures, paint, clown paint, face painting. So anyway, so my negative keywords right now, if I've got, if I've got 15 regular keywords that I'm targeting, my negative keyword list is probably almost a thousand keywords. Because if you're paying for that keyword, I'm not looking for somebody who wants to know how to paint their bathroom vanity. So that's not a, you know, I don't mind on my, on my website actually showing up for how to paint a bathroom vanity, but I don't want to pay for somebody to click my button, who's looking how to paint a vanity.

So I don't target anything.

I got so many negative keywords that I was, I was spending 3000 a month. I think we [00:31:00] Google and now I'm down to probably, oh, man, 25, or even 15% of that because instead of 100 clicks a day, I might get, I might get five and I'm okay with that because there's five people that are looking for transaction, not looking for information.

Scott: Yeah. So, for those that might not know what you're talking about, explain a little bit the, the keyword and then the negative keyword.

Kevin: Okay, so when you have a keyword, that basically means if I want to look up red wagons, I, my keyword will be, it could be you know, red wagon or red wagon. It, you know, you can do it separate together as a phrase, individual words. So it might be red wagon as a phrase, it might be wagon as a word. But if you don't sell blue wagons, you need, you have a negative list.

So you would have a blue wagon would be a negative list. Cause you don't want that person clicking on your ad for a red wagon. When that's what they're looking for. And you only offer blue wagons, so you have to put [00:32:00] enough negatives in there, so that your ad isn't showing up, wasting time. So it isn't good enough to say, oh my, hey, I had 300, 000 impressions today, because 300, 000 don't mean anything when they're giving impressions to people who aren't looking for your business.

You need 300, you need, you need five impressions for somebody looking to paint it outside of their house.

Scott: Yeah. And so basically what you're saying is, if you're not specific like that, then Google's gonna, put you in front of people that have no use for what you're selling, are not a client, and yet they're gonna charge you for that, that position, that, that, so you, they put you in front of people and charge you for it, and so the negative keyword is way more important almost than the keyword it sounds like.

Kevin: Lot more important. They just got me for a $90, $90 click the other day. So, so what I do is every week, at least the once a week, sometimes more, I'll go to my Google, [00:33:00] ads, page. I'll make sure the dates are from the last time I looked until today. And that I pull up all my search terms where people search for me and my ads popped up.

I look at those search terms and say, okay, is any search terms in here? That I don't want to be known for, and then I can add it to my negative list. So you can't, it's not a one and done thing. You keep on and keep on until you got however many search terms you need to not waste your money.

Scott: And so now you're spending what, 500 bucks a month, 750, what? Yeah. Yeah, okay.

Kevin: Probably. Maybe not even that.

Scott: Do you do anything in social media?

Kevin: So, I do post to everything as far as I do Instagram. I never got a job off Instagram. I know some people think it's the best thing. I do, Facebook posting and I do my Google, my business posting.

Scott: Okay,

Kevin: And I use an app for that. You know, I'll use SEMrush or either I'll use another app called Zoho Social. And they'll post [00:34:00] everything to...

All of them, you know, I, I do one post, they post it in everything.

Scott: Okay. Excellent. Those are, and those are apps or programs that people can subscribe to or use. Yeah, okay, great. What's your, what's your preference there?

Kevin: I use Zoho. So for people who don't know what Zoho is, I, I was using everything I was using. I mean, every little app you can come up with. And I got tired of having to pay for all these different apps. So basically I went to Zoho probably about three years ago, because they have everything within that Zoho family.

So I can do my website from Zoho. I could do my scheduling calendar from Zoho, my books from Zoho, my everything. So you don't, my meetings from Zoho, Word, Excel. Zoho has about 60 something programs that all falls under their umbrella that I can keep. Everything condensed into one [00:35:00] operating system. It's got its pros and cons for sure because it's a, it's a complicated thing and you probably won't quit spending money on it because you can always hire programmers to go in and do special things for you.

But it is something that's what I use. But there's a lot of programs that people can use.

Scott: Yeah, I think Zoho is, a really powerful, technology. I just think, it just seems like not a ton of people in the United States seem to really be that familiar with it or use it. I think there might be, might be some more international users that are stronger than, I don't, I don't know. But yeah, I do once in a while have someone that sends me something on the Zoho platform.

So I know it's very robust. So is that what you then use for all your... I was another, my next question, what's your tech stack look like? Is it all Zoho?

Kevin: Okay. So I use mostly Zoho. I did change and now I use, I use WordPress. So I [00:36:00] keep my website up with WordPress. I built my website. I do use, let me just think of what I use here.

[00:36:08] Business Management and Estimating Strategies
---

Scott: What, how do you do your estimates?

Kevin: Zoho One is the all encompassing portion of it. And basically you pay per employee. So you pay like 39 dollars a month per employee and they get everything. You don't have to do it that way. You can just go in and use Zoho CRM, which is super powerful.

I mean, even from just if you just did their CRM, you could do your campaigns, your marketing. I mean, you could do so much just from that. It pops up on the screen when they call who it is, their account, super powerful. So you don't have to go in and do the whole Zoho One. But Zoho One just has everything.

And that's what I do.

Scott: Okay. And what do, what about, accounting, bookkeeping? You Zoho for that as well? Wow. You're all in.

Kevin: Yeah.

Scott: You seem to be very [00:37:00] self sufficient. In other words, you've said over and over, I built that, I did that, I did that. You've, for the most part, you've done all these things yourself and researched and, and done all of this building yourself?

Kevin: Yes.

Scott: Interesting.

Kevin: I've, tried to hire it out and I just can't find, I can't get satisfaction.

Scott: Yeah.

Kevin: I mean, the marketing companies that say they're doing stuff and I mean, what are they doing? You don't see it. I mean, I can't, I mean, I know I'm probably going to get beat up on this, but when you opt them, I mean, when you do SEO, for a paint company, I don't understand how I can keep doing SEO every single month for years on end when I'm still using brush rollers and paint.

I paint inside, outside, cabinets, commercial, residential. I mean, how much SEO can I do? To be paying them crazy numbers every month?

Scott: Yeah. Think [00:38:00] about the role you play in your business. What would you say your superpower is, or what is unique to you in, as far as what you do in your business?

Kevin: Well being that hands on with all the back office stuff is probably pretty unique. I can definitely answer a lot of questions on that end. Talking to customers before I vanish, that's superpower.

Pretty much I can, I'm a good talker and, and then after that estimate, I don't want to be seen anymore heard from or reported to, but I mean, really customer service and just, just being open to talking to people doing that. I mean.

Our team is super good. I love all my people. Like we're all family. And, I mean, we text back and forth, you know, all the time.

And over the weekends, they'll say something happens. They're texting me to show me this weekend. One of them's a son, the tire broke off of the off [00:39:00] of their, lug nuts broke and the whole tire came off. And the first person they sent, I'm probably was the third person they sent the pictures to showing me.

I mean, so we got a tight group.

Scott: Um, You feel like you're pretty good at the sales part, but then once it's sold, you want to hand it off and you really don't want to manage the day to day.

Kevin: I I'm tired. I want to, I want to get rid of that.

You know, I know that my business is only worth me if I can't get it to somebody else to take over. If I leave it's over, you know, and I really, I can't figure out, you know, I mean, I listened to podcasts, I listened to everybody's podcasts, but, nobody really lays down and says, here's how you hire the estimator here's, you know, the fears I have is how much money do I need to have in the bank to hire this estimator?

What does my backup need to be? What's a good scope? Who who's providing leads? So. [00:40:00] It's just, and then what kind of person am I looking for? So it's really, if I could hire an estimator, even a general manager and an estimator, I would be happy because I could still sit in my office and do what I want to do, check jobs when I want to, or talk to customers when I wanted to, but not be required to.

Scott: Yeah. So tell me a little bit about managing your business. What are the, what's the data? What kind of things are you looking at and what's the frequency? Is it daily, weekly, monthly, lead flow, man, revenue? What are you looking at?

Kevin: So I look at what's in the bank. I mean, to be honest with you, I'm not going to tell you that I got a list of 15 numbers I keep looking at, graphs and pie charts. I kind of look at what we've got. How many people still have estimates out? How many estimates I did this month or versus last month or last year, my win ratio, and just a general how much money we got in the bank, [00:41:00] because if all my numbers work out the way my pay is, everything else works out after that.

I don't really have to nickel and dime anything else. We're, we're completely debt free. I don't owe no money on nothing that I own. My, everything I got is paid for and that's personal and business. And that's just the way I've always, always done it. I mean, so I don't really look at a lot of numbers.

I mean, to be honest.

Scott: You're focused on sales it sounds like, so if you got, if you're selling something, then that's good. And if you got money, that's good. You're your, job profitability is pretty guaranteed the way you're running your crews. And, so that's really the bottom line is, where's the money with the balances?

Okay. If you only could do one thing in your business, if I said, yep, new law come in, I know you're not much into laws probably there. If I know you, but this is pretend you're excited about this one. [00:42:00] What's the one? If I only let you do one thing, what would what would the one thing you do in your business that you would hate to let go?

Kevin: One thing that I would not want to let go. And it could be anything. It could be

Scott: Yeah, it could be anything. I'll even give you two things. I'll let you do two things. If it's that close.

Kevin: Man. If I had to do something and I had to do one thing, it would be, you know, I'd have to do estimating. There just ain't another way around that for me.

But even though I want to get out of it.

Scott: But do you like estimating?

Kevin: I do like estimating. I don't like the follow up. I don't like anything after I pull off. You know, I'm good with the customer when I walk off. I know that they love me and I know I can tell you about 90% of the time if I'm gonna get the job or not. And I have no problem with the customers. But after I leave, you know, after painting for this many years, I'm ornery, I don't want nobody calling me after that and asking me a dumb [00:43:00] question.

Scott: Yeah. I think ornery is a good word for you.

Kevin: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. I that as a compliment!

Scott: I know you did. That's the only reason I'd say it to you. Plus, I'm not in the same room, so you can't get to me. But, but it sounds like you really find a lot of pleasure in the back end stuff. The Zoho, and even the little bit even maybe the, the marketing. It seems like those two things are also a source of pleasure for you.

Am I wrong?

Kevin: You're right. I like, I like to see it when I like to see the results of that. And I, and I don't mind sitting, I can sit at the computer all day. You know, so that would be my, that would be number two. So my first, so maybe actually the estimate would be number two. Number one would let me be in my bubble in the office, creating the stuff that I like to do.

I mean, that could be handbooks, that could be lean technology for the shop. It's just so much stuff that I can do from the computer. I feel like that every time I sit down, I got five minutes and I got to go.

Scott: Yeah. [00:44:00] So as we've been talking, that's really the sense I've been getting is, man, you really like the back end, all that stuff. Estimate, now it's pretty normal that the owner is the primary estimator and they're good enough, right? You built a solid business, so you might not be the best, but you're good enough, you have a successful business, but maybe that's not...

That's why I asked the question, if I had to get you down to one thing, and I think your second answer is probably a little more honest than the first one, which is, yeah, if I could just sit in the office all day and someone else sell it, I'd be pretty happy actually right now.

Kevin: Oh yeah, that sounds good.

[00:44:35] Successful Business Building and Future Planning
---

Scott: Yeah, alright, let's get on that.

Now I do want to just touch on culture, because you did, so typically when we have someone that is, more sub model, we, you know, we sort of wonder about the classic culture.

Culture has been very vogue in small business for, I don't know what, a decade or so at least. And, the idea of enjoying the place we [00:45:00] work, having good, positive interactions.

And yet when we hire subcontractors, they're not necessarily drinking all of our Kool Aid or whatever, but you. You know, sounds like there's a part of your company that still has a family atmosphere. How do you, how do you cultivate that? And what do you guys do that might help unite you even though you are separate entities?

Kevin: Well, I think one thing is we're not only trying to be a family. I'm hiring families. So I'm hiring people. You know, these people are married, and, man, I mean, they're, you know, they're always happy.

I mean, I'm gonna tell you, they come in in the morning and it's just like, man, you know, they are happy. And I mean, they work together all day and of course they're together when they're not working. But, you know, I'll call them. We go to eat and we go to eat Mexican food. And I mean, I try to. I try to always do something.

I mean, if I'm going to the job, I'm trying to get them drinks, or if they're going, you know, they'll say, hey, we're going to go to lunch. [00:46:00] They call me and invite me to lunch. So, I mean, we, and I don't mean as a group, even like there's two over here, but he's like, hey, we're going to lunch if you're going to be around here.

And I go to lunch with them and they buy my lunch. So it's not just like, I got to try. We all do it together and it just really works out well. And I mean, that would be, you know, that would be a definite requirement for anybody that comes in. They have to get along. I mean, if they don't get along with one of my people, they're out of here.

So, Ashley has been super good. She's, she's married. She's got some kids. So, you can find good people. It just, it might take a while, but there is good people out there.

Scott: Many more years would you say you'd like to work?

Kevin: Zero. You know what? If I would have started saving when I started working, I would not be working right now. Actually retiring and not working. I mean, I have to say at least 10 more years. You know, I do have, that is one thing I've been trying to prepare for, and I think everybody who listens to this, they should [00:47:00] be doing the same thing. You gotta figure out your next step. I mean, no matter if you're a one person or 50 people, I mean, you gotta know what's after that.

And for me, like my shop's paid for, it's 5, 000 feet. I can rent it out anywhere, you know, probably, I mean, today I can rent it for 2, 500. I bought another shop right next to me. It's 5, 000 square feet. I rent it out for 2, 500. So I'm trying to prepare and have a couple things coming in. So besides retirement or my Social Security.

I didn't really start saving until probably this last, this last go around and I've done pretty good. And I wish I would have been saving the whole time. And I do notice, it's the same thing I was saying before with the paint company. When I, well, one thing we did start doing this year is when I take my deposit checks, which I do a 10% deposit, we don't put them in the company checking account no more.

Those go right into a savings account. So [00:48:00] that 10% is automatically gone away. I don't see it and everything else goes into the, to the regular account. So that's just one way I'm trying to separate without seeing it. But I have noticed whenever we hire somebody or we, we take on a new monthly bill, you know, from somebody.

I mean, it can be just say $500 for Google. We don't never see it. You don't never miss it. I mean, it kind of just works its way in and works its way back out and the bank account stays where it is or whatever. And, so I am trying to figure out my next step getting that

Scott: So have an operating account that you operate out and then there's a savings account that you kind of keep it separate So you don't get fooled into thinking. That's a great idea. It's something that at C4C we report on your actual cash because a lot of people it might have a bunch of money, but they also might have a bunch of liabilities and that it includes customer deposits So they might be sitting on very little of their own money, and that's a [00:49:00] great little visual that you have as you look at your, your bank account and you see them separated. That's, that's cool. Would you like to grow your business? Would you like to double it?

Kevin: I would and I've tried to ramp it up a little bit this year. Last year was not that great. The year before, obviously, everybody did good. I did okay. I'm about $100,000 ahead of what I was last year right now and probably really about $100,000 ahead in profit, for the company. But I have ramped up this direct mail and some other things.

So I am trying to grow, but I don't know. It's hard to compare yourself when you listen to other people talk on these podcasts with their money and how much money they're doing, because. I'm doing I'll be doing about it. I'm hoping to do $1,000,000 this year, just so I can say I have a reason to be on this podcast.

But the thing about it is I'm gonna try to do $1,000,000 with 6 employees or 5.

I mean, 5. [00:50:00] just had hired that last my last girl 2 weeks ago. So, I mean, I can do $800,000 with 4 people. And be still be okay,

Scott: Yeah,

Kevin: But, I really would like to get in. I really would like to grow it up to where I needed a salesperson and where I would need a general manager to make a real business.

[00:50:21] Growth in Business
---

Scott: Well, that's one of the reason I, reached out to you. We know each other, probably initially through, PCA, probably res, probably residential forum is what I'm guessing is if I'm rec recalling correctly. And we, and we have a mutual friend, Ron Rice as well, that kind of, he, he, your name pops up from time to time and only in good ways, I promise.

And I know that, even though you're not flashy, you're opinionated and you've been, you've behaved yourself very well today. Thank you.

But I know that you have a very strong business. So there's nothing to be ashamed of [00:51:00] there because what you're saying is something that people are actually, some people that just heard what you said, are not even believing it.

Truthfully, they're going, there's no way with four, call it four and a half because we're almost halfway. You're going to do $800,000. And what, what the truth is, is you are. And that means you have a very disciplined business. So your bill rate, your estimate rate, your cost of goods sold.

You've talked to us a little bit about your 30 to 40% plus paint. You know, those, those are true statements. And what that's affording you is a very healthy profit, which is why you're in this business. You're not in this business just for fun. You're in this business to make some money. And, and I think that's what you're doing.

You're not, focusing on some big number. I want to do 2 million. You've got a business that pays you and keeps profit to the point that you're enjoying a good life. You have some property, you have some nice things and you're enjoying your life. And I think that's really what I'd like for some people that [00:52:00] are listening to this to get out of this is hey, the top line revenue is just a number, right?

Everyone says a number. Lots of people don't even know the number, but you can have a nice life, you know, having a consistent, predictable and calculated process that that Kevin's really, really has if you're listening between the lines a little bit today.

So as we roll out of here, tell me, what would you say to a young up and comer?

Someone that's just beginning or sort of just taking the first steps, you know, what would you say to them and advise them to do?

Kevin: Rarely do I see anybody making money in new res, so I'd probably say, you know, it's going to be tough. I mean, people who claim they're making money, maybe count what they're getting in and not count what they're taking or spending. So, I'd be careful with new residential. It's busy work. That's all it is for me or what it was for me.

Keep in touch with, keep a list and keep in touch with all your customers forever. [00:53:00] We didn't have email back when I started. And if we did, oh, man, I probably would only be doing pressure washing today because of the amount of money you make per hour. So I would do that. And at least probably try to touch base 4 times a year. And I want to say one thing about reading all these books and all these Facebook groups.

You know what you can read till you're blue in the face. If you don't do nothing about it, it ain't going to do you no good. Go ahead and read The E Myth because everybody thinks that's, you know, God's gift to business.

But if you don't do nothing with The E Myth, I read it twice. I can't tell you one thing about that book. You know, entrepreneurial, I can tell you that, but so don't, don't get caught up in that. And I heard a thing the other day that said, look, we're all trying to put this big puzzle together. So if you go and try to put a puzzle together from 50 different sources, and you're getting a piece from every 50 places, it is not going to [00:54:00] go together.

I mean, you can't, you can't, you can't get pieces from every single little thing and try to make that into one puzzle that's solved. So, you know, stick with something. Stay, stay with, stay with one thing, you know, try to take some advice and build off of what you learn.

Scott: Yeah, I love it. Well, this has been fun, you're a fun guy. Enjoy talking to you. Love your Southern draw. It's always always makes it more warms it up

Kevin: Man, I meant to put that, I, I meant to put that filter on.

Scott: I don't think there's a filter enough, big enough to get, get that one, but Kevin, I've, I've enjoyed knowing you over the years and I do think you've got a solid business that you can be proud of. And so I hope that some people out there that are, maybe frustrated with what they've accomplished with a relatively modest crew can take heart with saying, hey, you've done a very, very great job with, with, a modest amount of people and you're, you're doing great.

Kevin: Well I appreciate it and I enjoyed it and wasn't here as bad as what I thought.

Scott: I, [00:55:00] Oh, I appreciate you, buddy. Have a great rest of your year.

Kevin: Alright, send me an

Scott: I will.

Kevin: Alright buddy. Bye.[00:56:00] [00:57:00] [00:58:00] [00:59:00] [01:00:00] [01:01:00] [01:02:00] [01:03:00] [01:04:00] [01:05:00] [01:06:00] [01:07:00] [01:08:00] [01:09:00] [01:10:00] [01:11:00]